Curse

Lishy · Jul 31, 2009, 09:00 PM // 21:00

I got some ideas for skills.

Avatar of Balthazar
Cost 15
Activation 2
Recharge 60
Concise: (10...74 seconds.) You gain +33% increased attack speed, have a base 10% armor penetration with attacks, have +%25...40...55 chance to critical, and you gain 4 energy whenever you successfully land a critical hit. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

They have the critical bonus and energy management of the assassin, as well as armor penetration that a warrior gains access to and a reliable IAS.

Might sound a little overpowered, but besides the IAS, all it is is a little bit from the primary from both the assassin and the warrior.
It also fits AoB quite well since it is debated the worst Avatar and Balthazar is more about blowing shit up.
And since literally other physical profession in the game is very efficient in wielding different weapons (Even the paragon!) with the exception of the Dervish, they need some skill functionality changes.

Heart of Holy Flame
Cost 10
Activation 1/4
Recharge 60
Concise: (10..20..30 seconds.) Whenever you deal physical damage to an enemy, all adjacent foes to you suffer 0..10..15 holy damage. End effect: inflicts Burning condition (1..4..6 seconds) and deals 0..55..65 holy damage to adjacent foes.

The trick here is to purposely make it synergize with Hundred Blades sword builds, Scythes in general, and AoE axes. Because it is tied to Mysticism, this prevents other professions from abusing it. And because of how Dervishes (are supposed) to work, it keeps the concept of enchantment juggling. You can either use it for the damage bonus or use it in an enchantment juggle if they revert Pious Assault. And because it has such a high recharge though, you're forced to bring Eternal Aura, emphasizing the need to juggle enchantments.

Aura of Holy Might
Cost 10
Activation 3/4
Recharge 25
Concise: (20 seconds.) You deal +20...30% damage with your scythe. Initial effect: nearby foes take 40...48 holy damage. End effect: nearby foes take 40...48 holy damage. For every 5 ranks in mysticism, you gain 1 energy whenever your attacks deal elemental damage.

This isn't self explanatory, so allow me to explain. Although not mentioned, it converts your attacks to holy damage and has priority. This means it prevented combining Mantra of Frost with Avatar of Grenth in PvE, which was another reason not to use a dervish.
Basically, the change is that it wouldn't convert your attacks to holy damage, which means slightly nerfing UWSC without killing it, but it would reward dervishes using non-physical damage due to the vast amount of skills converting your skills to elemental. Would have great synergy with Ebon Dust Aura and the like while still not giving you the energy bonus if you decide to use a Heart of Holy Flame based build with the buff I mentioned.

Lyssa's Assault
Cost 10
Cast 3/4
Recharge 6
Concise: Deals +5..17 damage. Deal +10..23 more damage and interrupts if hit foe was casting a spell.

Dervishes need an interrupt skill. And the old skill was kind of redundant since it couldn't be used for energy unless by a Ranger.

Arcane Zeal
Cost 10
Activation 1
Recharge 4
Concise: (10 seconds.) You gain 1..3 Energy and 5...17 health for each enchantment on you whenever you cast a spell.

Just a simple buff to compete with Ether Renewal, giving possibilities of Dervish Healers and buffing Orders Dervishes, giving Derv primaries another option. This may look like a clone skill, but the difference lies in the duration and recharge.
It may also bring Dervish heroes more into play, perhaps as the next "N/rt healer" due to the massive energy gain.

These are my proposed skill buffs that may help buff the Dervish. Of course, what's most important is that they REVERT PIOUS ASSAULT. And my skill suggestions don't have to be down to the number. They're just concepts.

w00ter · Jul 31, 2009, 09:31 PM // 21:31

=/ buff mysticism :

For every 2 ranks , steal 1 health from an enemy. Total lifesteal cannot go over 6. And hell , if it's too great , even nerf it a bit like soul reaping

! Something along the lines ( steal a maximum of 50 - 70 health over 10 / 15 seconds ). It would be pretty nice with a vampiric scythe and AoG. Also for the IMS , you have hear of holy flame and Whirling Charge ! 33% and 25% ... i don't get why you'd want a permanent 33% , maybe not to waste 2 slots ? I'd personally go for

[skill]Whirling Charge[/skill] Stance. (3...13...15 seconds.) You move and attack 25% faster. Ends if you are not enchanted.

Mysticism and Wind prayers are great , combine with scythe mastery. People often just go for earth prayers thinking they're more tank-wise while allowing them to deal more damage. Wind prayers allow great self heals , energy management , ias , ims ! I've honestly had less trouble dying on a Mysticysm/Wind/Scythe spec than on a Mysticism/Earth/Scythe soo yea , i'm going a bit off topic.

Buff mysticism to what i've said at the top for a nice fix.

Also agreed with kain on the above post , REVERT PIOUS ASSAULT , and AOHM linked with mysticism =0 ! That's all :3

Lishy · Jul 31, 2009, 09:49 PM // 21:49

I never said to link AOHM to mysticism. I said to rid it of the holy damage clause (Yes. Clause) and make it give energy if you deal elemental damage.
This would open up MANY possibilities as a dervish. But what would be most important is the other buffs I mentioned.
It's not that the other classes are better than what the Dervish does. It's that the Dervish does what it was not intended to do and has no benefits to using its own weapon.

reaper with no name · Aug 01, 2009, 04:40 AM // 04:40

1 lifesteal per 2 ranks of mysticism is meaningless. It won't allow a dervish to compete with a scythe sin or scythe warrior. Now that I think about it, lifesteal might not be the best method, because anything high enough to compete damage-wise with the competition would also be overpowered as a self-heal (because we'd be talking 30 or 40 lifesteal).

Hmmm...Here's an idea for AoHM. In addition to what it already does, make it add +4 damage to attacks per rank of mysticism. It might seem overpowered, but this would only barely make the dervish better than the competition with scythes (in fact, it might still not be enough; I'm too lazy to do the math right now). That's how underpowered the dervish is with the scythe: an extra +40 damage is not guaranteed to make them the best with them.

Axel Zinfandel · Aug 01, 2009, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

I got some ideas for skills.

Avatar of Balthazar
Cost 15
Activation 2
Recharge 60
Concise: (10...74 seconds.) You gain +33% increased attack speed, have a base 10% armor penetration with attacks, have +%25...40...55 chance to critical, and you gain 4 energy whenever you successfully land a critical hit. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

They have the critical bonus and energy management of the assassin, as well as armor penetration that a warrior gains access to and a reliable IAS.

Might sound a little overpowered, but besides the IAS, all it is is a little bit from the primary from both the assassin and the warrior.
It also fits AoB quite well since it is debated the worst Avatar and Balthazar is more about blowing shit up.
And since literally other physical profession in the game is very efficient in wielding different weapons (Even the paragon!) with the exception of the Dervish, they need some skill functionality changes.

Just a BIT overpowered don't you think? I mean, compared to any other elite, this is ridiculous. Lower the Crit % (Scythe master still adds chance to crit) to around 35-40% at high attribute, and remove the energy gain. Mysticism already provides enough (especially if it were buffed?).

Still I don't like the idea of forcing a dervish into one elite just to do slightly better then other classes weilding their weapon, let alone giving the elite the exact same properties as the other classes to compete.

No, Dervishes need to be buffed in different ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Hmmm...Here's an idea for AoHM. In addition to what it already does, make it add +4 damage to attacks per rank of mysticism. It might seem overpowered, but this would only barely make the dervish better than the competition with scythes (in fact, it might still not be enough; I'm too lazy to do the math right now). That's how underpowered the dervish is with the scythe: an extra +40 damage is not guaranteed to make them the best with them.

+60 damage at rank 15? Not enough? Are you kidding me? And with the +%damage buffing that even higher?

What are you smoking, and where can I get some o.O

Lishy · Aug 01, 2009, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Well, like I said. The numbers don't have to be exact. They were just pulled out of my ass. Though you misunderstood.
The the investment is organized like this:
0..12..16

So Avatar of Balthazar has 55% +critical MAX.

Though it's the concepts that count.

Faer · Aug 01, 2009, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Heart of Holy Flame
Cost 10
Activation 1/4
Recharge 60
Concise: (10..20..30 seconds.) Whenever you deal physical damage to an enemy, all adjacent foes to you suffer 0..10..15 holy damage. End effect: inflicts Burning condition (1..4..6 seconds) and deals 0..55..65 holy damage to adjacent foes.

The trick here is to purposely make it synergize with Hundred Blades sword builds

Except it'd be quite superior to Hundred Blades. Synergize? More like wipe off the map.

Not that HB is good to begin with, but seriously now.

Axel Zinfandel · Aug 01, 2009, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Well, like I said. The numbers don't have to be exact. They were just pulled out of my ass. Though you misunderstood.
The the investment is organized like this:
0..12..16

So Avatar of Balthazar has 55% +critical MAX.

Though it's the concepts that count.

More then a 50% chance to crit is ridiculous from one skill. Not even assassins have that, considering how crit% stacks (not additively). Max doesn't mean much at all because most people run Forms with pretty high attributes. I understand how investment is organized, and I think it shouldn't have more then 40% at 15 (by the way its 0...12...15) rank.

Still, as I said, dervs shouldn't be fixed by just throwing an elite skill at them that gives them the properties that make Assassins and Warriors so good with the scythe.

Tenebrae · Aug 01, 2009, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

More then a 50% chance to crit is ridiculous from one skill. Not even assassins have that, considering how crit% stacks (not additively). Max doesn't mean much at all because most people run Forms with pretty high attributes. I understand how investment is organized, and I think it shouldn't have more then 40% at 15 (by the way its 0...12...15) rank.

Still, as I said, dervs shouldn't be fixed by just throwing an elite skill at them that gives them the properties that make Assassins and Warriors so good with the scythe.

QFT . Give the 10% AP in scythe attack skills and thats all . See "of balthazar" skills and smitting prayer dmg spells. Think before write . AoB + JI + Asuran scan = Welcome to 1 hit 1 kill ? no thanks.
I know you all are thinking in HM but please , IMAGINE that "balances" you are writing against lvl 20 foes , or even lvl 24.

Its as absurd as a ranger saying "hey , mesmers can do 120 dmg when they interrupt a spell and they dont have to wait till "the arrow hits" so , i want my punishing shot to do +150 dmg if it interrupts a spell and recharge 50% faster" .

Symeon · Aug 01, 2009, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Just remove Dervishes from the game. They were an awful idea for a profession in the first place. I really hope they don't come back in GW2.

draxynnic · Aug 01, 2009, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theocrat

Except it'd be quite superior to Hundred Blades. Synergize? More like wipe off the map.

Not that HB is good to begin with, but seriously now.

It certainly does synergise. No reason a Dervish can't be given a sword (some AoL dervishes do use swords, in fact) and if you have both HB and this going at once...

It does strike me, though, that this would pretty much kill it for use with enchantment-juggling unless Eternal Aura was brought along... and if that is brought along, the long recharge becomes meaningless.

reaper with no name · Aug 01, 2009, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Just a BIT overpowered don't you think? I mean, compared to any other elite, this is ridiculous. Lower the Crit % (Scythe master still adds chance to crit) to around 35-40% at high attribute, and remove the energy gain. Mysticism already provides enough (especially if it were buffed?).

Still I don't like the idea of forcing a dervish into one elite just to do slightly better then other classes weilding their weapon, let alone giving the elite the exact same properties as the other classes to compete.

No, Dervishes need to be buffed in different ways.

+60 damage at rank 15? Not enough? Are you kidding me? And with the +%damage buffing that even higher?

What are you smoking, and where can I get some o.O

Who's gonna burn 75 hp just for 15 mysticism? Or 35+Their headpiece? Besides, it would be +dmg, and unaffected by DR bonuses.

Call it overpowered if you will, but this is the kind of buff the dervish needs if it is to beat scythe sins and scythe warriors. That's how overpowered those two professions are with scythes. So, I submit that it is in fact not overpowered by sheer virtue of the fact that it would only make the dervish a little more powerful than the scythe warrior and scythe sin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symeon

Just remove Dervishes from the game. They were an awful idea for a profession in the first place. I really hope they don't come back in GW2.

They fit better than warriors.

"Look at me! I'm a class with no magic in a game built on magic!"

Axel Zinfandel · Aug 01, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Who's gonna burn 75 hp just for 15 mysticism? Or 35+Their headpiece? Besides, it would be +dmg, and unaffected by DR bonuses.

Call it overpowered if you will, but this is the kind of buff the dervish needs if it is to beat scythe sins and scythe warriors. That's how overpowered those two professions are with scythes. So, I submit that it is in fact not overpowered by sheer virtue of the fact that it would only make the dervish a little more powerful than the scythe warrior and scythe sin.

Read Tenebrae's reply. NOT on an elite skill. Dervishes should not need to invest in ONE elite skill to be better then warriors or assassins with a scythe.

Also, whether you use minors of Superiors in PvE is up to you. I've tried both, and neither makes too much difference for general play. The only time you have to worry about health is when you are concerned about how much aggro you vs your team is taken, and as a dervish, I'd much rather the aggro be on me, the player, then a Hero or Hench with stupid AI.

-I- know when I'm taking too much aggro, and I know how and when to heal or detract aggro. I feel that the health vs attribute tradeoff is something that I can handle. My goal in PvE with me and heroes is to not die to begin with, which is why me nor my heroes generally carry rezes either.

Also, with +60 damage being increased by other sources, who cares about how much damage you are taking when you can just swing once and obliterate everything in front of you.

Lishy · Aug 01, 2009, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

It certainly does synergise. No reason a Dervish can't be given a sword (some AoL dervishes do use swords, in fact) and if you have both HB and this going at once...

It does strike me, though, that this would pretty much kill it for use with enchantment-juggling unless Eternal Aura was brought along... and if that is brought along, the long recharge becomes meaningless.

Eternal Aura should always be used in an enchantment juggle due to the high-recharge nature of your enchantments. And this way it is balanced. Plus, the high damage and range of Eternal Aura is awesome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Read Tenebrae's reply. NOT on an elite skill. Dervishes should not need to invest in ONE elite skill to be better then warriors or assassins with a scythe.

Which is why you have my proposed buff to Heart of Holy Flame which would put Dervish on the upperhand if using a hundreds blade build, and removing Holy Damage of Aura of Holy Might so that you can use the insane damage bonus that is Avatar of Grenth + Conjure Frost
Before you say something is locked into a single build, look at all the options.
Heart of Holy Flame would be triggered with each enemy and Hundred blades hit.
Say you've pulled a mob and now you've balled them. You have 5 enemies on you.
You activate hundred blades and it fires off average 16 damage. Then you have Heart of Holy Flame trigger 5 times. So 14x5=70+16=86
In a single hit you've dealt 86 damage. While not the insane damage that is a warrior or assassin, but keep in mind this would be on every hit for AoE. It shines in different ways though.
This may sound overpowered on paper, but to truly get the high damage, you need to literally be surrounded. And a dervish doesn't have high enough armor.
However, it's still amazing to pull off 86 aoe per hit. And if you use whirlwind attack, 86x5= 430 You get a maximum damage output to a single target, not counting sword damage. Of course, W/N with mark of pain is even more insane. And the actual reality of balling up 5 enemies is very slim. Usually the maximum one ever has balled on them is 3, which GREATLY reduces damage.

But as for the more basic high damage itself, that's where Avatar of Grenth would hop in.
Say with Aura of Holy Might you deal and avg of 123 dmg per hit.
So you put up Grenth and you gain 20 life drain per hit. `
Then you use conjure frost and gain about 15 dmg from it

that 123 dmg avergage would raise to 158 average per hit. AND because it is cold dmg, it would provide super-benefits against destroyers and titan.

AND, what's more if Aura of Holy Might's holy damage is removed is Ebon Dust Aura. A dervish blind-bot that blinds on each hit is appealing, yes? Especially considering scythes hit 3 adjacent foes?

Plus Arcane Zeal would further place usefulness for an Order's Dervish on the team and even open up possibility of a Dervish caster.

In the long run, even if you're not using my idea for Balthazar, you still have usefulness for the team. Be it utility, support, or AoE damage, you would matter.

And once Pious Assault is reverted, a Dervish would become a walking aoe condition-spammer of death.

Ugh · Aug 01, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

They fit better than warriors.

"Look at me! I'm a class with no magic in a game built on magic!"

Warriors don't need magic; they hit stuff and act brave. Rangers don't need magic cuz they fire their lazors. And Paragons don't need magic cuz they yell and throw stuff.

I actually wouldn't mind if Dervs and Paragons were removed in GW2. They seem kind of redundant to me. We don't need 3 melee classes or 3 support classes.

But, I'm sure there are many people who love those classes and would hate to see them removed. So, I don't expect their removal and I'm not going to encourage the idea.

Enix · Aug 01, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Granted Dervs arent as pwnzorific as Sins with a scythe, but they still can crank out reasonable damage.

This build works reasonably well - you can also bring a staff if you have a blooder along to keep your energy high.

Asuran Scan
Aura of Holy Might
Eternal Aura
Heart of Fury
*Grenth/Lyssa
Victorious/Radiant
Eremite's Attack
Mystic Sweep

Grenth + vampiric is nice for when there is going to be a high armor boss and is just fun. Lyssa punishes eles and necros or other chars with long cast times.

I agree, Myst needs to make Dervs better at Derving (and Avatars need a complete PvE set where all forms cost 5e and aren't disabled for 120 sec).

Lishy · Aug 02, 2009, 01:09 AM // 01:09

I've stressed it once, and I'll stress it again:

Dervishes don't suck because they're overpowered. They suck because they have no benefits from using their own weapon and have no team synergy outside of Orders.
Plus they were nerfed a lot. And that only made it worse.

draxynnic · Aug 02, 2009, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Question: What special benefits, exactly, do Warriors get for using Warrior weapons?

Lishy · Aug 02, 2009, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Strength ^

It helps a LOT. Plus you can spec 15 into swordsmanship for a more kickass Dragon Slash.

Axel Zinfandel · Aug 02, 2009, 01:23 PM // 13:23

@Kain- since when are we talking about a dervish with a sword? This entire thread is about balancing dervishes with their own weapons, not creating gimmicky HB builds

@draxynnic- Strength. Armor penetration is nice, but the strength skill line has always been amazing.

-----
anyway, I would love to see enchantment-juggling come back, because that's what dervishes were made for, really... A revert to pious assault would be awesome, as would shreading a few seconds recharge off of a lot of the dervish enchants that'd be used with it.